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Post by gemofthehills on Jan 18, 2024 19:14:40 GMT -6
UAB has never been in the AP Top 25 They have in Basketball, but I have no reason to doubt you are correct in football which what we are posting about. UAB has never had that "great" season Plus they never had the joy of getting to play a SBC schedule.
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Post by jsumania on Jan 19, 2024 9:37:05 GMT -6
UAB has never been in the AP Top 25 They have in Basketball, but I have no reason to doubt you are correct in football which what we are posting about. UAB has never had that "great" season Plus they never had the joy of getting to play a SBC schedule. If they couldn't have a great Top 25 season playing UTEP, FIU, FAU, North Texas, ODU, Rice, Charlotte, and MTSU.... then it certainly won't happen playing Memphis, USF, Tulane, Army, UTSA, Navy, and Temple.
UAB wouldn't have done it in the SBC either. They were CUSA West champs during one of their better seasons under Bill Clark, and got drubbed by App State that year. UAB would lose to App State, Troy State, Marshall, Louisiana, and Coastal Carolina most years.
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Post by gemofthehills on Jan 19, 2024 12:27:45 GMT -6
They have in Basketball, but I have no reason to doubt you are correct in football which what we are posting about. UAB has never had that "great" season Plus they never had the joy of getting to play a SBC schedule. If they couldn't have a great Top 25 season playing UTEP, FIU, FAU, North Texas, ODU, Rice, Charlotte, and MTSU.... then it certainly won't happen playing Memphis, USF, Tulane, Army, UTSA, Navy, and Temple.
UAB wouldn't have done it in the SBC either. They were CUSA West champs during one of their better seasons under Bill Clark, and got drubbed by App State that year. UAB would lose to App State, Troy State, Marshall, Louisiana, and Coastal Carolina most years.
But a couple of those champion years tory state was unable to beat UAB.
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Post by jsumania on Jan 19, 2024 22:06:50 GMT -6
If they couldn't have a great Top 25 season playing UTEP, FIU, FAU, North Texas, ODU, Rice, Charlotte, and MTSU.... then it certainly won't happen playing Memphis, USF, Tulane, Army, UTSA, Navy, and Temple.
UAB wouldn't have done it in the SBC either. They were CUSA West champs during one of their better seasons under Bill Clark, and got drubbed by App State that year. UAB would lose to App State, Troy State, Marshall, Louisiana, and Coastal Carolina most years.
But a couple of those champion years tory state was unable to beat UAB. True, but that was a much different time. Troy State is a much different program with a different conference identity than they were 15 years ago... just like UAB is. TSU's trajectory has gone up, while UAB's has arguably declined.
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Post by gemofthehills on Jan 20, 2024 9:04:38 GMT -6
But a couple of those champion years tory state was unable to beat UAB. True, but that was a much different time. Troy State is a much different program with a different conference identity than they were 15 years ago... just like UAB is. TSU's trajectory has gone up, while UAB's has arguably declined. Would disagree, tsu will stay about the same. JSU and tsu will be closer in trajectory path. UAB will have the potential to have opportunities not available to schools without a med school and possibly AAU status. Academics not sports will hold us poor schools down,. I would add with the addition of us, Sam, JSU and Kenny all southern G5 schools will have a tougher time because the players being spreaded out more. Over the last 10 years both programs are real close UAB has played 600 ball and tsu has played just a little over 600. Both have the trend of get a good coach and win, get a bad one and lose. UAB has more money than tsu which should allow them to keep a good coach longer but if the right school come they are gone. tsu doesnt have as much funds so, as this year, can lose a coach to another G5 program. UAB appears to have a coach over his head and tsu has an unknown, so advantage tsu next year. If we keep CRR I like JSU better than both. tsu has the advantage of a more engaged fan base. Their fans want to win and expect to win, not sure about UABs. Sure they want to win but existing makes most happy and some are more concern with basketball. tsu has done a good job with what they have and has had a lot better leadership vision than JSU. Been to a few games in Troy and their fan attendance at conference games is about the same as ours. Not speaking of either announced attendance but people at the games. Know Im a homer but on the football field, I believe JSU has a better trajectory than either. Of course we are starting from a lower standpoint which makes it easier but with the much greater population within a close distance of campus than either UAB or tsu our potential is great. G5 schools still pull most of their players from nearby areas. Also our allifilation with CUSA is a better setup for us than SBC. Expect great things from Delaware and their academics will help us being associated with them. Now having UAB, GaSo plus the conference games with Middle and WKU give us several close games to engage a lot of new fans and allows opposing fans to attend games in Jacksonville. Guess in short, I dont view tsu as the model but just a school to reference when moving forward. They have done some nice things but their surrondings and JSU are different. Did notice UAB has received votes in the poll one year and tsu was in the poll for several weeks in 22 and in for a short while one other time.
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Post by Cleburneslim on Jan 21, 2024 17:00:28 GMT -6
If your aiming to be troy st. Then you are definitely aiming low.
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Post by Whup Em All on Jan 22, 2024 9:57:12 GMT -6
If your aiming to be troy st. Then you are definitely aiming low. Perhaps, but we can do a lot worse than using troy state as our "minimum" standard. Love or hate the trojans (and if you love them, you're hopefully just visiting here...) they've done a lot of things right, and, with the exception of maybe the last 5-10 years, have FAR exceeded Jax State in their transition to FBS. Given our natural advantages (some of which gemofthehills already mentioned, such as population) if we'd shared troy state's commitment to facilities, hiring, and athletic budgets over the past 3 decades, we would've made it to FBS far sooner. I don't know if we'd be in the American, since our profile doesn't match what that conference has traditionally looked for (urban setting, strong academics, etc.), but we'd have a whole heckuva lot more than one bowl appearance and win in our trophy case, along with a few Top 25 appearances. I'm with Gem on this, though: it's not athletics, facilities, or fan support that's going to form the divide between the haves and have nots in FBS. It's academics. AAU status is realistically probably out of our grasp, but we should be pushing hard toward Carnegie R2 status. Even Sammy and Kenny -- and freaking Tarleton -- have achieved that. At the moment, we're not even classified as a Doctoral University; we're in the "Master's College and University (larger programs)" category. What does all this have to do with football, basketball, and OLY sports? I don't know either. But it matters to the conference officials who'd be voting to offer us a chance to upgrade to a higher profile/revenue conference. Exhibit 1: For all the success they've had at the FBS level, Boise State is forever stuck in G5. The PAC 12 never seriously considered them, and even the lowly 2PAC (which is clinging to "Power" status by the skin of its teeth) will probably hold their nose if/when they extend an invitation. All because Boise has "only" been able to achieve R2 status. It's ridiculous, but it's a fact of life.
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Post by jaxstate_student25 on Jan 22, 2024 13:41:22 GMT -6
If your aiming to be troy st. Then you are definitely aiming low. Perhaps, but we can do a lot worse than using troy state as our "minimum" standard. Love or hate the trojans (and if you love them, you're hopefully just visiting here...) they've done a lot of things right, and, with the exception of maybe the last 5-10 years, have FAR exceeded Jax State in their transition to FBS. Given our natural advantages (some of which gemofthehills already mentioned, such as population) if we'd shared troy state's commitment to facilities, hiring, and athletic budgets over the past 3 decades, we would've made it to FBS far sooner. I don't know if we'd be in the American, since our profile doesn't match what that conference has traditionally looked for (urban setting, strong academics, etc.), but we'd have a whole heckuva lot more than one bowl appearance and win in our trophy case, along with a few Top 25 appearances. I'm with Gem on this, though: it's not athletics, facilities, or fan support that's going to form the divide between the haves and have nots in FBS. It's academics. AAU status is realistically probably out of our grasp, but we should be pushing hard toward Carnegie R2 status. Even Sammy and Kenny -- and freaking Tarleton -- have achieved that. At the moment, we're not even classified as a Doctoral University; we're in the "Master's College and University (larger programs)" category. What does all this have to do with football, basketball, and OLY sports? I don't know either. But it matters to the conference officials who'd be voting to offer us a chance to upgrade to a higher profile/revenue conference. Exhibit 1: For all the success they've had at the FBS level, Boise State is forever stuck in G5. The PAC 12 never seriously considered them, and even the lowly 2PAC (which is clinging to "Power" status by the skin of its teeth) will probably hold their nose if/when they extend an invitation. All because Boise has "only" been able to achieve R2 status. It's ridiculous, but it's a fact of life. Are we trying to achieve that?
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Post by Whup Em All on Jan 22, 2024 14:15:47 GMT -6
Perhaps, but we can do a lot worse than using troy state as our "minimum" standard. Love or hate the trojans (and if you love them, you're hopefully just visiting here...) they've done a lot of things right, and, with the exception of maybe the last 5-10 years, have FAR exceeded Jax State in their transition to FBS. Given our natural advantages (some of which gemofthehills already mentioned, such as population) if we'd shared troy state's commitment to facilities, hiring, and athletic budgets over the past 3 decades, we would've made it to FBS far sooner. I don't know if we'd be in the American, since our profile doesn't match what that conference has traditionally looked for (urban setting, strong academics, etc.), but we'd have a whole heckuva lot more than one bowl appearance and win in our trophy case, along with a few Top 25 appearances. I'm with Gem on this, though: it's not athletics, facilities, or fan support that's going to form the divide between the haves and have nots in FBS. It's academics. AAU status is realistically probably out of our grasp, but we should be pushing hard toward Carnegie R2 status. Even Sammy and Kenny -- and freaking Tarleton -- have achieved that. At the moment, we're not even classified as a Doctoral University; we're in the "Master's College and University (larger programs)" category. What does all this have to do with football, basketball, and OLY sports? I don't know either. But it matters to the conference officials who'd be voting to offer us a chance to upgrade to a higher profile/revenue conference. Exhibit 1: For all the success they've had at the FBS level, Boise State is forever stuck in G5. The PAC 12 never seriously considered them, and even the lowly 2PAC (which is clinging to "Power" status by the skin of its teeth) will probably hold their nose if/when they extend an invitation. All because Boise has "only" been able to achieve R2 status. It's ridiculous, but it's a fact of life. Are we trying to achieve that? Achieve P5 status? Probably not. I mean, realistically. But every school in America is (or should be) trying to improve its situation. The ones who sit on their laurels and say, "We're exactly where we need to be," are the ones who, 20 years from now, wonder why all their rivals have moved up and away, and they've been left behind. Looking at you, Valdosta State.
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Post by jaxstate_student25 on Jan 22, 2024 18:59:59 GMT -6
Are we trying to achieve that? Achieve P5 status? Probably not. I mean, realistically. But every school in America is (or should be) trying to improve its situation. The ones who sit on their laurels and say, "We're exactly where we need to be," are the ones who, 20 years from now, wonder why all their rivals have moved up and away, and they've been left behind. Looking at you, Valdosta State. I meant the Carnegie R2 status. I'm just not familiar with how that stuff works
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Post by Whup Em All on Jan 23, 2024 10:24:24 GMT -6
In a VERY simplified nutshell...
Carnegie classifies schools by the number of graduate and doctoral degrees they offer, as well as the amount of each school's budget dedicated to research (or "research activity" as they call it).
Jax State is currently a Master's University, Larger Program (M1). We *do* offer some doctoral degrees, and that number is increasing, but we don't yet meet the threshold (20) to step up to the "Doctoral University" class. We are the only M1 program in CUSA, but we share this distinction with troy state, App State, and Coastal from the Sun Belt.
The basic Doctoral/Professional University classification simply means the school offers 20 doctoral or professional degrees. This is probably where we're headed in the short term, since it's the easiest to obtain. There's no "R" designation with this. It's just a step up from Master's. Some notable CUSA and regional examples include WKU, Liberty, DBU, EKU, Chatty, Belmont, FGCU, West Ga, and Bama State.
There's an "R3" class, but it's kind of a different animal, and is reserved for schools offering degrees in a single focused area, such as medical schools, art schools, and music conservatories. Most of them don't play NCAA sports, so we'll ignore them.
That brings us to the first "prestigious" classification: "R2", or Doctoral Universities – High Research Activity. These are schools which not only meet the qualifications for D/PU, but also had at least $5 million in total research expenditures. A few examples from CUSA and the SBC include Kenny, Sammy, MTSU, La Tech, NMSU, USA, Ga Southern, and JMU, as well as Tarleton.
Finally, we have the highest, most prestigious Carnegie classification, R1: Doctoral Universities - Very High Research Activity. These are schools which budget at least $50 million on research & development and produce at least 70 research doctorates each year. Only FIU, UTEP, and incoming Delaware meet this standard in CUSA. If they receive a CUSA invite, UMass will join this group. And to keep this post kind of on the thread's topic, UAB is also R1.
What does any of this have to do with football, basketball, and OLY sports? Not a damn thing. But it's an association thing. University presidents want their schools to be grouped with other high-end academic institutions.
So why does this matter? Well, the presidents get a vote on who will be extended invitations to join them in their athletic conference. So let's say you're a snooty university president, like that Killingsworth fellow (just kidding, Don), and your conference has a vacancy it's trying to fill. Your candidates include School A, a school with tons of athletic tradition, an involved & excited fan base, and a couple of longstanding rivalries with your fellow conference members, and School B, a school who always makes the "Bottom 10" list as one of the worst teams in college football, whose basketball team at their best is just OK, and who considers 15,000 disinterested fans to be a super-large crowd at their homecoming game. We'll say both schools are located in similar media markets, so that's not a factor. Who do you invite?
Before you make your decision, Mr. University President, sir, please note that School A is merely an M1 school, while School B has achieved Carnegie R1 status. Now! On to that invitation...
Most fans would pick School A in a heartbeat. Most presidents would choose School B. Because being able to boast that your conference has just added a new R1 school elevates your own status at cocktail parties.
That's why it matters.
Once you get to the P5, the super-elites add on a whole new designation, separate from Carnegie, because one can never be snooty enough.
Enter the Association of American Universities (AAU). This is an exclusive, invitation-only group of schools devoted to "transforming lives through education, research, and innovation." More specifically, (allow me to quote Wikipedia here...) "the largest attraction of the AAU for many schools, especially nonmembers, is prestige. Since the AAU's founding, it has 'been a grouping of the elite in the American university world', and '[n]ew presidents of nonmember universities often list gaining admission to the AAU as a goal of their administration.'"
In the olden days of college football, the PAC-12 and Big Ten wouldn't even look at you if you weren't an AAU school. They've been forced/convinced to change their attitude somewhat by the allure of billions of dollars of broadcasting revenue. But it still matters to them. Heck, even lowly Washington State and Oregon State are reluctant to invite non-AAU members to join them in the dying 2PAC. Prestige is a powerful drug. And the AAU is as prestigious as it gets. In the SEC, only Vandy, Florida, Texas A&M, Missouri, and incoming Texas are AAU members. (There are some notable schools who aren't considered good enough to join their little club. I'll let you figure out who those are.)
As with Carnegie classifications, AAU status has absolutely nothing to do with athletics, but the drive toward "prestige" keeps it involved as a major component of conference realignment, right up there with "market size" and "endowments" and other important sports stuff like that.
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Post by jaxstate_student25 on Jan 23, 2024 13:09:05 GMT -6
So AAU is the goal
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Post by smith79jordan on Jan 23, 2024 13:45:01 GMT -6
If we wanted to go Power 4/5, then yes, AAU is the goal. That's not happening. We were founded as a teachers college. That's still a good chunk of our alumni base, and there's nothing wrong with that. We're always going to produce strong middle-class workers. Moving to R1 or AAU would take serious investments in areas we have never really shown interest or capacity in investing. We'd probably build a statue of the president that gets us to R2 status.
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Post by brother on Jan 23, 2024 13:49:14 GMT -6
If we wanted to go Power 4/5, then yes, AAU is the goal. That's not happening. We were founded as a teachers college. That's still a good chunk of our alumni base, and there's nothing wrong with that. We're always going to produce strong middle-class workers. Moving to R1 or AAU would take serious investments in areas we have never really shown interest or capacity in investing. We'd probably build a statue of the president that gets us to R2 status. The state of Alabama would never allow it anyway.
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Post by Whup Em All on Jan 23, 2024 14:20:53 GMT -6
What smith79jordan and brother said... AAU is not a realistic goal for Jax State. It's not even a pie-in-the-sky goal, to be honest. R2, however, is a realistic, attainable goal. It'll cost a lot, but it won't step on nearly as many toes at the State House in Montgomery and their precious in Tuscaloosa, Birmingham, and/or Auburn.
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